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Indonesia Thinking
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Written by:
3/11/2009 12:23 PM
The David Widjaja Case - KBRI Singapura Speaks Up
The tragic and mysterious death of 21-year-old David Hartanto Widjaja on Mar 2 has shocked the Indonesian community in Singapore and also caught the attention of the media in Indonesia. Indonesia Thinking editor Megawati Wijaya and IPA VP for Public Relations and Publicity Irena Josoeb scored an exclusive interview with KBRI Singapura spokesman Yayan GH Mulyana on Mar 6 to bring you the latest insights and information on the case.
Indonesia Thinking (IT):There has been some unhappiness among the Indonesian community regarding the way that David Widjaja has been portrayed in the media, on the perceived premature conclusions made, and also in the “imbalance” in reporting the case. What is KBRI Singapura's (Indonesian Embassy in Singapore) take on this?
Yayan GH Mulyana (YM): If we read the media, we do see speculations going on. Some say the case is related to the terminated scholarship of David Widjaja, some say he jumped to his death, and so on.
All stories in the media provide different angles and various perspectives of viewing things. We are offered by the various media – both local as well as the ones in Indonesia – their ways of looking at things. Thus reading a report in a certain media gives us a certain impression of how things could have happened.
On KBRI's side, whenever we are asked to give information, we only provide those which are factual in nature. KBRI has been involved actively in this case since the incident happened – in calling the parents, talking to the police, etc. But such an involvement does not mean that KBRI will jump to conclusion on what had really happened. We can get a more complete and comprehensive picture when the autopsy results and the police report are out. These however will take sometime.
Nonetheless we did mention our reservations on the inconsistencies of statements made by the university where David studied. As an example, in Nanyang Technological University’s (NTU) first statement, it said that David "jumped" to his death. But in the second statement, another choice of word, "fell", was used. This means that there has been a change in describing the incident, thus causing the media to pick things up differently.
IT: Can you describe what happened on the day you heard of the incident, Monday Mar 2?
YM: The incident happened at around 10 am on Mar 2, and (KBRI) and David's family were allowed in NTU at around 9.30 pm. In both the closed room of the alleged attack and the spot where David hit the ground, the areas had been cleaned except for spots of blood. The incident happened in the Electrical and Electronic Engineering building which has a rooftop bridge on level 4 that links it to another building. We were brought to level 5 where Prof Chan's office is. It's said that some people heard calls for help that morning during the time the incident happened, with Prof Chan seen running to the left (after leaving the room), while David ran to the right.
But nobody knows what had happened in the room before that – whether there was a fight or a provocation, nobody knows. Whether David suddenly got angry, had prepared a knife, or if the knife was already in the room, these are not clear either.
It's also not known how David reached level 4; whether he took the stairs, if he fell from level 5 to the rooftop, or if he went to level 4 first and then reached the rooftop.
Before one reaches the rooftop, there is a toilet that one needs to pass by. David was seen sitting on the rooftop. It's not clear whether he was pushed off the rooftop or if he had fallen – there is no clarification on this yet. By the time the police reached the scene, David was already down on the ground floor and nobody had seen what happened during the time.
Since the beginning after they knew of this matter, David's mother, father, and brother couldn't believe that David would do this kind of things and hurt others and himself. David was smart, friendly, and kind. But David once told his mother that there was a “killer teacher” (exact term used: “dosen killer” - ed) in the school. It's not clear what David meant by the term "killer teacher".
KBRI had also met up with David's friends. At first, we met up with a group of Indonesian students at around 8 pm in the International Student Centre of the university before going to the incident scenes. There gathered the students, David's parents, and from the university: the President, the counselling representative, and a doctor.
The President expressed his shock on the sudden incident, as well as NTU's commitment in taking steps to help with the investigation. We also talked to one of David's close friend, and two people who saw David for the final time. One of them saw David with his backpack, 200 meters away from the incident scene. Another saw him the day before in the dorm.
There were many questions from both the KBRI and students in the university. Many believed the injury (that Prof Chan sustained) was not fatal, and hence if the police wanted to ask him to help with the investigation, they could do so immediately as usually if a person related to a case is already conscious, he would be questioned immediately. It is not immediately clear on why this was not done.
KBRI has thus asked this question to NTU's public relations team, but the answer then was, "Let's focus on the family first; the family is still in grief." But what the students want, is a clear explanation from the university on Prof Chan.
IT: There is some basis cited for these rife speculations. Some stem from the fact that only David’s parents were allowed to see the body immediately, and even so, it was only from the neck up.
YM: From the KBRI, it was Pak Fahmi (Mr Fahmi Aris Innayah, Protocol and Consular Affairs of KBRI Singapura) and I who went to the mortuary. The one who saw the body first was Pak Fahmi. During the first view, he got a more complete picture (of the body).
David’s father who was also there, could see that there were wounds on the neck on the body, and that aroused some questions from the father. "Why are there bandaged wounds on the neck? Has anybody been hurting my son?" he asked then. There was a university doctor then, but apparently he could not explain the matter. He was saying that David probably got hurt when he fell. But everything was still in the possibility stage – with neither clear explanation nor confirmation yet.
I asked the mortuary, and they said the autopsy result would be out in a month’s time. They said such is the typical length of these procedures in Singapore.
I did not manage to see the wrist to see if there were wounds on them. But I saw many wounds on the face and on the legs. There's a possibility that David had inflicted wounds on himself. One of the discussed possibilities was that David went into the toilet on the fourth floor to do something. But it's not clear yet if he'd really been there and what he had done there.
The parents refused to talk to the media here. Perhaps they were more comfortable to speak their minds when they were back in Indonesia, thus explaining the articles in local media after they had returned. Over here while in Singapore, David’s mother was especially wary.
It is our hope that the police would investigate thoroughly into the incident. Based on KBRI's experience of working with the police, I don't think the police would be trying to manipulate facts and the like.
IT: We understand KBRI has helped a lot in matters of disputes involving domestic workers. But for this type of student matters, what can KBRI do?
YM: KBRI has helped a lot of domestic workers. As an illustration, in the Barroqah case where the maid is alleged to have killed her employer, we were the ones who contacted lawyers and attended courts. Some domestic helpers have no relatives at all, so we are the ones who act as their guardians. When they pass away in Singapore, we are the ones who take care of the bodies, brought them home, and paid all the necessary expenses.
David’s next-of-kin, in this case, are his parents. The body was cremated as requested by the parents within a day after seeing the body. Had his parents not been present, we would be the ones taking care of everything as we have done with the domestic helpers.
The cases concerning the domestic helpers are also more clear-cut. But this case involving Prof Chan and David is certainly not. The police categorise it as a coronary case, that is, something that is not clear yet. Such a status however does not exist in Indonesia.
After completing investigations, the coronary court in Singapore will then decide if this is a suicide case, or if it is a misadventure or accident, or if it is a case which requires further investigation.
KBRI will always engage itself in working with the police. Cooperation however, will not be in the form of investigating this case, because we don't have any rights to carry out investigations. This is the right solely reserved by the local authorities here.
IT: Does KBRI get regular updates on new developments on this case?
YM: Yes, but not when there is only partial information; only if there is a completed portion of the investigation then might the police release the information. For now, we get updates mostly on which stage of investigation the case is now at.
IT: What message do you have for the Indonesian community in Singapore to assure that things are being taken care of in this David Widjaja case?
YM: Expressing personal emotions such as sadness and sympathy through letters to the forum or blog posts are some things that come naturally given such an incident. However, doing things that are speculative in nature are as much as possible, better avoided. Let the police and the authorities do their jobs. At the same time, KBRI is always ready and open anytime to hear any feedback or concerns from the students as well as all Indonesian community in Singapore.
(Indonesia Thinking spoke again with Pak Yayan on Tuesday Mar 10. There is however currently no new update on the case from the Singapore police.)
All information correct as of publication Mar 10, 7.30 pm
All rights reserved by Indonesian Professionals’ Association. All comments posted on this article will be moderated and may be removed without notice.
Tags:
31 comments so far...
Re: Indonesia Thinking Issue #3: The David Widjaja Case - KBRI Singapura Speaks Up
Thank you IPA for giving out such an information. Sure it will answer some curious minds about what is happening behind this case.
By Made Adi on
3/11/2009 4:14 PM
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Re: Indonesia Thinking Issue #3: The David Widjaja Case - KBRI Singapura Speaks Up
You must be kidding me. This article doesn't answer any of the questions.
Just like another person gossiping.
By Malam on
3/11/2009 4:34 PM
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Re: Indonesia Thinking Issue #3: The David Widjaja Case - KBRI Singapura Speaks Up
if the news in singapore has been diverted to some extend, but why, as a country who has lost one of her best student, sit tight and not doing any lobby to singapore? but again, what are hoping here? they even cannot bring back the corruptor who ran to land of lion.
By wongdeso on
3/11/2009 4:55 PM
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Re: Indonesia Thinking Issue #3: The David Widjaja Case - KBRI Singapura Speaks Up
I just don't get it, how on earth this kind of misfortune happened to this genius kid who has a bright future? Is it because this professor is somebody in Singapore than he is an angel??? Everyone tends to make a mistake, including that professor too. So how come nobody question him, at least he comes out to make comments after discharged from hospital. Let's us see his face while he's talking! We could detect at least if he's telling the truth or not by his words. Dead man could not defend himself, so the only possible thing is asking that professor to come out and talk. How come it is so hard just to do that? Don't let us behind the clouds.
Because Abraham Lincoln once said "You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time."
By cy on
3/11/2009 5:46 PM
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Re: Indonesia Thinking Issue #3: The David Widjaja Case - KBRI Singapura Speaks Up
We shall wait till the autopsy result is out as it will take 1 month. I believe the investigation is still on going. Although we find it strange that there is no news of the professor is questioned or the media reporter who wrote about David committing suicide is questioned. It's best for us to monitor the progress of the investigation instead of jumping into any conclusions at this moment.
By Grace on
3/11/2009 6:42 PM
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Re: Indonesia Thinking Issue #3: The David Widjaja Case - KBRI Singapura Speaks Up
It may be possible that the Prof has already been interogated by the police. But for the the sake of the uni's and Lion's 'world-class' branding, they cover it up.
By gg on
3/11/2009 7:02 PM
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Re: Indonesia Thinking Issue #3: The David Widjaja Case - KBRI Singapura Speaks Up
Why do we have to take middle position when the media is just so upsetly set the tone as "an Indonesian student stab his professor"? That professor should have some contributing factors as well right?
By citra on
3/11/2009 7:12 PM
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Re: Indonesia Thinking Issue #3: The David Widjaja Case - KBRI Singapura Speaks Up
There's nothing apparent regarding this case besides the fact that nothing is ever apparent.. if we should wait for a month or even more expecting autopsy result or investigation result, the case would already be half-buried and the press ,as affluent as they are, would have been noisy in another presence of news-worthy issue... just way too many aspects of this case are in the dark... after all we're talking about a country that still presses its media strictly and implement heavy control (if required, manipulation) towards what to be circulated into the public.
what is the government doing? i think there's a clear definite line between having careful diplomacy versus being carefully ignorant.."but again, what are hoping here? they even cannot bring back the corruptor who ran to land of lion." quoted from wongdeso, can't agree more..
By Adrian on
3/11/2009 7:15 PM
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Re: Indonesia Thinking Issue #3: The David Widjaja Case - KBRI Singapura Speaks Up
My question is : Are there any KBRI/indonesian detectives involve in the investigation?
Background of my question:
Let's take a look on another example Bali bombing several years ago. The tragedy happened in Indonesia teritory. As we know, many casualities from Australian tourists. Thus, AFP (Australian Federal Police) were granted to conduct investigation on such case. This is the fact as far as I know from mass media.
So what is the corelation between Bali bombing case and David case?? We know that Singapore Police Force is the one whom has the sole authority on investigating the case. Although David's case was happening in Singapore teritory, David is an indonesian citizen. As such, do we have any detectives from Indonesia to help the investigation?
By Yoga on
3/11/2009 7:32 PM
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Re: Indonesia Thinking Issue #3: The David Widjaja Case - KBRI Singapura Speaks Up
My question:
Why is it that all information on David and his FYP were taken down from the NTU website?
It's as if he never existed.
As an NTU alumni, I find that the school's handling of the incident is very, very unsatisfactory.
By Anon for now on
3/11/2009 7:58 PM
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Re: Indonesia Thinking Issue #3: The David Widjaja Case - KBRI Singapura Speaks Up
the difference between David and Bomb Bali case is... Indonesia and Australia has an interpol agreement or whatsoever. so any incident we can investigate together, either in Aussie or Indonesia. while between Indonesia and Singapore? there are none.... don't you guys figure it out why we can't bring our corruptor back to Indonesia? since no agreement, we can't do anything.
take a look another case of lippo group case. not sure what his name is. after being a fugitive in Indonesia, he ran away to US. our interpol manage to catch it and bring him back home. why? because we do have interpol agreement with the US.
bottom line, if u commit a crime in Jakarta and runaway to Singapore, there's no way our police can catch you in Singapore. ONLY the Singapore authorities can catch. (provided they want to catch you).
in this case we just hope the Singapore authorities are investigating it thoroughly.
By Der Kaiser on
3/12/2009 12:05 AM
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Re: Indonesia Thinking Issue #3: The David Widjaja Case - KBRI Singapura Speaks Up
for the indonesia goverment, please pay attention for this case.this also related with the safety of the indonesian students at singapore.
By mei hoa on
3/11/2009 11:06 PM
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Re: Indonesia Thinking Issue #3: The David Widjaja Case - KBRI Singapura Speaks Up
I applaud the balanced view given by KBRI here. However, reading the subsequent comments gives me the impression that nationality bias is at play (right or wrong my country(man)).
I certainly hope that we, as Indonesians in Singapore, have more maturity in handling the emotions and biases than those demonstrated in the Indonesian media and circulating via emails. After all, we should know better about the police system here; like KBRI said, "Based on KBRI's experience of working with the police, I don't think the police would be trying to manipulate facts and the like."
As an Indonesian NTU alumni who's lived in Singapore for 10 years, I think I have the credibility to make the above comment.
Let's give the chance to the local authorities to investigate. They are equipped to do that, we aren't. And if anyone does have facts (not accusatory opinions) that can help the investigation, let him speak out.
By Andreas Novio on
3/12/2009 12:01 AM
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Re: Indonesia Thinking Issue #3: The David Widjaja Case - KBRI Singapura Speaks Up
just because u stayed in sin country for 10years does not automatically make you credible on your comments. in fact just because you have been in there for 10 yrs, you have become one of them, you are thinking the way they want you to think. How much actually do you know how the system work in the country?
By non-kiasu on
3/12/2009 11:01 AM
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Re: Indonesia Thinking Issue #3: The David Widjaja Case - KBRI Singapura Speaks Up
It is not investigate, it is delaying the case. Im disappointed that NTU has handled the case like this way.
Erasing the David's record, and even erasing Mr. Zhou's facebook is too far.
Why NTU does not want to keep school's best student in the record as if David never exists before?
By none on
3/12/2009 10:09 AM
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Re: Indonesia Thinking Issue #3: The David Widjaja Case - KBRI Singapura Speaks Up
I think to pursuit this to be clear for all of us is need not only KBRI attention but it should be also some statement from government which mean some statement from president SBY...
I do believe that there is conspiracy in this case!!!!
2 people from same university same division have almost similar case (David & Zhou) showing that something went wrong in ntu!!!
remember that there are some unsolved case happen in this university involving other prof in the past...
and for Andreas Novio...
How can we just keep mouth and just wait if the autopsy result took a month!!! this is strange!!! how come autopsy took a month!!! this is not poison case or radiation exposured case...
RIP David... we proud with you!!!
By Nyong Ambon on
3/12/2009 10:24 AM
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Re: Indonesia Thinking Issue #3: The David Widjaja Case - KBRI Singapura Speaks Up
We should wait for the police investigation result.
KBRI already doing the best they can.
==quote==
From the KBRI, it was Pak Fahmi (Mr Fahmi Aris Innayah, Protocol and Consular Affairs of KBRI Singapura) and I who went to the mortuary. The one who saw the body first was Pak Fahmi. During the first view, he got a more complete picture (of the body).
==end quote==
From this statement, David parents and Pak Fahmi can be a key witness in the investigation too.
I just hope that KBRI or David family did take some photo for themself.
RIP David.
You are gone but surely never be forgotten.
By Yulbrainer on
3/12/2009 11:11 AM
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Re: Indonesia Thinking Issue #3: The David Widjaja Case - KBRI Singapura Speaks Up
Andreas Novio:
I too have been in Singapore for over 10 years. I used to think that the police over here is much better than those we have in Indonesia. However, I have heard (read) about cases where the police basically sits on the fence twiddling their thumb when an incident has occurred. They just conveniently label it as "civil case" and therefore out of their jurisdiction. Yes, they are better in many ways, but unfortunately worse in some ways.
One of the latest incident: http://theory.isthereason.com/?p=1158
How about another case filled with so many unlikely coincidences that is up to now still unresolved - the escape of the pant-less, limping man?
Following this case so far, I found that:
Information was erased.
Scene of incident was cleaned up in less than 24 hours.
"Victim" totally invisible and inaccesible. We don't even get a picture of the stab wound.
Witnesses not speaking.
A knife without handle (and still no handle up to now???)
Still have 100% trust in the authorities? I sure don't. We'll see if their final report can answer most of the questions.
Trust. But verify.
By Anon for now on
3/12/2009 3:01 PM
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Re: Indonesia Thinking Issue #3: The David Widjaja Case - KBRI Singapura Speaks Up
You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time. (Abraham Lincoln)
So let's start conveying information to "all of the people" "all of the time"...soon the truth will be revealed
By cy on
3/12/2009 3:01 PM
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Re: Indonesia Thinking Issue #3: The David Widjaja Case - KBRI Singapura Speaks Up
@wongdeso: keep your spirit up. I am sure we are getting somewhere here.
@Grace: you are right. While we are waiting for the investigation case, let's tell other people about bias news from medias and some mysteries in David's case. More people, more pressure created.
@citra: none of us here is taking middle position. We want to know the TRUTH! Let's join our force to get other people to apply the pressure.
@Malam: this article doesn't answer any question about why David is dead. But it answers some questions about what kind of role KBRI is playing. We must be glad that there's a bigger organisation that is supporting our back.
@Yoga: This is not Bali bombing case. The Australians were there in Bali because we didn't have enough technology to do investigation. Keep your mind focus that what we want as a community is to apply pressure.
@non-kiasu and Nyong Ambon: Andreas Novio wants to tell us, keep our mind focused to applying the pressure for the authority to tell the truth. He doesn't want us to confuse this case with hatred because of nationality differences.
@cy: I totally agree with you to keep our mind focused on conveying the information to all people. Stick to the facts, and let the truth be revealed.
By Made Adi on
3/12/2009 11:32 PM
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Re: Indonesia Thinking Issue #3: The David Widjaja Case - KBRI Singapura Speaks Up
RIP David....
I really hope God's hands interfere and let the truth set us free.
Man shall lies and turn things the other way round but God can't be fooled.
Let them be accountable to Him and for the lion police departments and gov't...you better be fast in doing things!
And don't try to cover up as what you used to do!
By angel in disguise on
3/12/2009 11:32 PM
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Re: Indonesia Thinking Issue #3: The David Widjaja Case - KBRI Singapura Speaks Up
@angel in disguise:
Right, lets hope that God's hand interfere, and let God make the cops tell the truth, and set us free and so on.
I am wondering,.. Why didn't God just prevent David from falling in the first place??
For God's sake "angle in disguise", leave God out of this discussion, will you?
God....
By John on
3/13/2009 12:34 AM
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Re: Indonesia Thinking Issue #3: The David Widjaja Case - KBRI Singapura Speaks Up
I can relate to those who questioned the procedures of the investigation, or the unusual actions taken by NTU, etc.
But for those who are emotionally and groundlessly accusing that the authorities will manipulate the facts and findings,...
Please give me one reason why they would want to do so, and one example if they had done so in the past (facts please, not just guessing)
Who is this Prof. Chan anyway? Is he a "really high" level political figure? or a close relative of a "really high" ranking government officials?
Why would the authorities go to the extent of covering up for him?
By John again on
3/13/2009 9:42 AM
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Re: Indonesia Thinking Issue #3: The David Widjaja Case - KBRI Singapura Speaks Up
I dont want to make any judgments, but its clearly that something went wrong because its happened on 2nd March but until now no official statement from Singapore police department... at least they have to inform the progress of investigation!!!
one more thing... Zhou was found dead as suicide!!! he came from same university and same division, same laboratory, joined as project officer on 2nd March (the day David die) and found dead after 4 days David die, its weird isnt it??? if its true that he was suicide, what if he was homicide????
For Made Adi
Yes we have to focus... and wait... but for how long???
Remember that they can play with the time to close the case at the end!!!
from my point of view, this case need government attention by giving official statement & question from Indonesian leader (its mean our president) to singapore government, not only KBRI...
Other country did the same while they have case related to their people (European, American, etc) and why we cant???
By Nyong Ambon on
3/13/2009 9:43 AM
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Re: Indonesia Thinking Issue #3: The David Widjaja Case - KBRI Singapura Speaks Up
Its just doesn't add up...If I were planning to kill somebody and commit suicide afterward, I would finish the job which means to kill or be killed...either I would kill the guy or be killed by the guy, no running, since I know that I would jump off the roof top and be dead anyway so why run and waste all that energy while i could use all the energy to make sure the guy dead...But David was seen running away which kind of strange to me and not to mention others facts
My condolences to David's Family
By Nick on
3/13/2009 10:24 AM
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Re: Indonesia Thinking Issue #3: The David Widjaja Case - KBRI Singapura Speaks Up
@ John on 3/13/2009 12:34
Well done, I am proud of you, you have High - Self Confidence. Your support is really needed in this case.
@ Angel in disguise on 3/12/2009
Keep praying if that you only have.
Selamat jalan... David, We do support you.
By FreeSpirit on
3/13/2009 11:13 AM
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Re: Indonesia Thinking Issue #3: The David Widjaja Case - KBRI Singapura Speaks Up
Remember that the one who was injured is not always the victim, it can be the villain as well. So we can't say that the prof CKL is the victim in this case until it was proven so by the local authorities. And maybe the 2 suicides cases in NTU are related to each other, either both of them really committed suicide or they were killed by someone. The chances of 2 suicides cases happened at the same place and within 1 week ranges to be a coincidence are very slim. Moreover, there are too many things that doesn't seems right to me for the 1st case whereby David was accused to commit suicide and also the 2nd case. We just hope that the truth will be revealed as soon as possible.
By No Nam the firsst e on
3/17/2009 9:07 PM
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Re: Indonesia Thinking Issue #3: The David Widjaja Case - KBRI Singapura Speaks Up
Excuse me..
But because of the media absurdly accused David Stabbed the Prof and Slit wrist and commit suicide by jump down, my frens and my family still in impression as reported by Media. And they jus remember bout a student stressed, and do such things. This is totally crazy. Now my family worry i might be too stressed from study also..
I think the Media has the responsibility to clear 1st this assumption from the public impression. This is unfair for David. Because it is up until now they still have this impression.
Hope his parents can keep on living well.
By Dvd on
3/18/2009 9:18 AM
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Re: Indonesia Thinking Issue #3: The David Widjaja Case - KBRI Singapura Speaks Up
John:
I can't begin to guess on reason, but I do have one example of the manipulation of facts and findings.
It is pretty recent even.
Go google "Dr. Allan Ooi", and read his farewell letter in full.
This person was portrayed to have done what he did because of every other thing - being a gamer, heart-broken, etc.
But there were no mention at all on what was the main reason, that was written by the person himself, of why he actually did it.
Even when the letter went out on the net, there were still obfuscations.
Of course, there are speculations that the letter might be a fake.
Can be 100% sure? I don't know. But the fact that there are people who quoted selectively from the letter (and twisting the words) is disturbing enough.
1 month they say? Fine. That's 2 weeks and counting.
By Anon, for now on
3/19/2009 2:34 PM
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Re: Indonesia Thinking Issue #3: The David Widjaja Case - KBRI Singapura Speaks Up
Seriously somebody really need to get all thiss stuff straight right now. Even the Indonesian president need to do something about this, it has been going on for too long. All this seems absurd to me, why don't the singaporean government actually issue a warrant for the professor, I mean at least he would be the number one suspect if this is not a suicide case. If he did not do anything, he should not be afraid to cooperate. Maybe we need to fight on this a little bit more, and Singapore should start helping David's family, I mean this is a matter of life and death and the mourning of the family left behind.
By ATX on
3/19/2009 3:06 PM
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Re: Indonesia Thinking Issue #3: The David Widjaja Case - KBRI Singapura Speaks Up
1 month has passed, the report is out, and we still know no more than before.
The prof. refused to meet the family, and now they had to resort to hiring a lawyer.
This is simply not acceptable.
By Anon, for now on
4/20/2009 4:13 PM
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